S4 E2: Loneliness

Today we’re talking about loneliness. About what it means to feel lonely, how it affects our mental health, who experiences it and what we can do to cope with it. 

Trigger warning: this episode mentions suicidal feelings*

 **Remember to rate, like, review and subscribe**  

 Guests on the show today? 

Carol: Guest, retired person from Norfolk 
Calum Scott: Guest, multi-platinum singer-songwriter
Bex: Guest, young queer person from North Scotland 
Catherine Seymour: Head of Research, Mental Health Foundation 

Meet the ‘Let’s Talk: Mental Health’ team:  

Jennie, Bethan and Tim pull on their own lived experience of mental health, their time working with mental health charities or services and their ability to connect with people to deliver an insightful podcast filled with kindness and support.  

Jennie Walker is the big talker (Podcast Host and Co-Producer). Bethan Buswell is the curious one (Podcast Co-Producer). Tim Butcher is the behind-the-scenes guy (Podcast Editor).  

Episode links: 

• Mental Health Awareness Week: https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/mhaw
• Loneliness research: https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/campaigns/mental-health-awareness-week/loneliness-research 
• Tips to cope with loneliness: https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/campaigns/mental-health-awareness-week/loneliness-help-advice 
• The Great Grief Trust: www.thegoodgrieftrust.org 
• Calum Scott's latest music, tour dates and more: https://www.calumscott.com/ 

This podcast is brought to you by the Mental Health Foundation. It is a space for our guests to discuss their personal experience and express their opinions. Our guests’ opinions are their own and are not an official stance of the Mental Health Foundation. 

Need support?
Call a helpline: Samaritans are available 24/7 for free on 116 123 (UK) and whatever you’re going through, they’re here to face it with you.  

Text a helpline: If you’re experiencing a personal crisis, are unable to cope and need support - but prefer to text than chat then reach out to Crisis Text Line by texting Shout to 85258 (UK).  

Get emergency support: If you are thinking about ending your life, please call 999 (UK) or go to A&E and ask for the contact of the nearest crisis resolution team. There are teams of mental health care professionals who work with people in severe dist

Transcript

Carol: 0:09

I'd lost my partner, I'd lost the love of my life, I'd lost the future I thought we were going to have together. And looking back, I think I also had lost my identity. Really,

Calum: 0:18

please know that, even though it might feel like you're alone, there are hundreds of 1000s of millions of people that feel this way. And you're not.

Bex: 0:26

I used to think when I was younger that maybe I was just naturally like a recluse. And maybe I was okay with that. But then I think it's just that I don't do the things like social or whatever, because I the exposure triggers the obsessions,

Catherine: 0:40

anyone can feel lonely, and almost everyone does at some point in our lifetime.

Jennie: 0:48

Hi, Welcome to Let's Talk mental health, where we get together with different people and experts to chat about mental health. We all have mental health, and we can all experience mental health problems. So on this podcast, we explore the topics that can affect how we think and feel. I'm your host, Jenny Walker, we would love to hear what you think of the podcast. So please do subscribe, like, share and comment wherever you get your podcasts. Today, we're talking about loneliness, about what it means to feel lonely, how it affects our mental health, who experiences it, and what we can do to cope with it. Millions of us feel lonely, but many of us still find it hard to talk about. It can affect our mental health and the longer we feel lonely, the more we're at risk of experiencing mental health problems. Loneliness is not about the number of friends we have, the time we spend on our own, or something that happens when we reach a certain age is the feeling we experience when there's a mismatch between the social connections we have and those that we need or want. This means it can be different for all of us. We want to bring loneliness out of the shadows and give it the attention it deserves. So we'll be exploring this and more. In today's episode. You'll be hearing from Carolyn Norfolk, singer songwriter Callum Scott and Becks in Edinburgh about their own experiences of loneliness. And then we'll hear it from Katherine Seymour, Head of Research at the Mental Health Foundation. He'll chat to us about the research behind why loneliness matters to our mental health. This podcast is brought to you by the Mental Health Foundation. It's a space for our guests to discuss their personal experiences and express their opinions. These opinions are their own and are not an official stance of the Mental Health Foundation. If you'd like to join the conversation online, tag us at mental health on Twitter, or at mental health foundation on Instagram. You can also find us on Facebook and LinkedIn. So Carol, thank you so much for chatting to me today. I really appreciate you taking the time. Can you introduce yourself to our listeners?

Carol: 3:11

Okay, well, my name is Carol. And I live in Norfolk I moved here several years ago with my husband, we used to live in London prior to moving to Norfolk. And we moved here thinking we were going to spend the rest of our lives together. And sadly, three years ago, my husband died quite suddenly and unexpectedly. And so I found myself alone, we have no family. And I was working I've run my own business prior to the pandemic as a personal development coach. So I was used to being out and about quite a lot. And then as the same my husband died three years ago, we had the pandemic went into lockdown and my life just disintegrated, I think is probably a good way to describe it.

Jennie: 4:04

I'm so sorry. That's I can't even imagine how hard that is, especially at such a huge time globally, you know, all of this isolation going into lockdown. So we're talking about loneliness for a Mental Health Awareness Week The theme is loneliness and how loneliness affects our mental health. Can you just talk a little bit about you know, your feelings of loneliness, how that affected your mental health?

Carol: 4:28

Okay, well, as an only child, I had experienced periods of loneliness during school holidays and things. But nothing compared to what you know, the last three years have been like my husband died in the May. I moved in the December and then the pandemic hit the following you. Well, I hadn't really got a chance to know any of the new neighbors. I had no friends who live close by And might both my parents have have died some time ago, and my husband's family live in Kent. So I, I think, you know, I felt really lonely, totally isolated. And when people talked about the supper having a support bubble, being in a new area, I had no one. So I was still very raw in my grief. When we were advised to go for walks to help with our mental health, I'd go for a walk on my own. But I'd see other people in couples or families, and that just heightened that sense of loneliness and isolation. And I didn't, I felt I had nothing to look forward to add loss, I'd lost my partner lost the love of my life, I'd lost the future I thought we were going to have together. And looking back, I think I also had lost my identity really. I found that I was drinking more, I wasn't looking after myself. I'd wake up in the morning, suddenly realize, you know, yet my husband had died, the pandemic was going on, there was all the uncertainty. And I didn't really feel I've got anything to live for. And there were times when I did think about taking my own life. And I didn't tell anybody there. So I didn't reach out for support. But it was, it was a really difficult time.

Jennie: 6:34

I think it's so interesting, what you've said about not only dealing with bereavement, but dealing with a sort of loss of identity, there's a huge part of your life. And what you were looking forward to things that you did every day that have kind of gone with, with, you know, your change in your life, the loss of your husband, which I can only imagine how difficult that would be what, what kind of things helped you deal with the feelings of loneliness and helped you you manage your mental health during that time?

Carol: 7:03

Well, I wasn't, although I was physically alone, and lonely. And I wasn't totally alone in that, you know, I used the phone, I use Zoom calls with some close friends and family. And a couple of people reconnected with me that I had not had contact with for a while. So that was really good. We had weekly phone calls. However, sometimes after those, I felt even more alone, because every while all of my friends and my husband's family, they were still with their families or close by to families, whereas I wasn't. So they helped in a way in that they kept me connected. But sometimes it also emphasize the fact that I was alone, I did some journaling. And I also practice mindfulness. So I use that to help me. And then through the local mind group, I discovered that they had an online weekly practice session. So I joined that. And even though it was people who you weren't seeing, just knowing that you were doing something with a community of others that helped. And then I got a dog, I really honed a dog that was helpful for walking it gave me some company in the house. And when people say about rescue dogs, I'd now say that I think he rescued me more than I rescued him that and he's he has got behavioral issues. So he did become a bit of a project for me, and a distraction. And then I at the end of 2020, we were in another period of lockdown. And I thought I can't face this all again. So at that stage, I reached out to somebody at met just before the first lockdown in my new area, and asked if they knew of any local groups that I could join albeit en su. And as a result of that I joined the youth reais a reading group and a writing group then I still win now that we meet face to face, I'm still part of those groups. And I also quite by chance, discovered an organization called The Good grief Trust, which is a charity that set up and for the bereaved run by the bereaved. And they were at that time running a virtual cafe where people who'd lost someone they loved could meet virtually and just talk about the person they'd lost all their grief. And that became a bit of a lifeline because for the first time I felt that I could be myself with other people who just got what it was like.

Jennie: 9:55

It's so important what you're saying. There's a number of points that jumped out at me and I definitely relate to what you're saying about sometimes on Zoom speaking to your friends or family who are all together and you know that will no doubt bring its own challenges, but it can exacerbate feelings of loneliness, I spent a lot of time and living on my own during lockdown as well. And I definitely resonate with that as much as I was trying to stay on FaceTime and chapter four, you can, you can sometimes think, Oh, they're all having fun. And you know, as much as they're joking about being, you know, and they're each other space too much. It's still a feeling of camaraderie and connectedness. And another thing that you said that jumped out to me was what you were saying about feeling? You weren't alone in your grief anymore? Because I think a lot of people think that loneliness is just about not having anyone around you. And that can be a huge part of that, as we've talked about today. But I think it's actually when you are with people, are you with people that understand you and what you're going through? Are you with people who see the parts of you that need to be seen? I was wondering, what, what do you think are some common myths about loneliness on that note,

Carol: 11:09

I mean, loneliness isn't, it's not a weakness. It's not about not being sociable. It can happen to anybody, at any time. It depends on circumstances. I think assumptions are made about people. And I think that it's not the same thing as being alone. Because now I recognize that I can be alone and not feel lonely, because I've developed all these connections and other strategies and interests that I didn't have before. So loneliness and being alone are two different things. I think going back to what he was saying about what you know, when you ask me about the effects on my mental health, it doesn't just affect your mental health, it affects you physically. Because as I say, I took less exercise, I didn't look after my body as much. So it had a physical impact, and maybe didn't mention at the time that you know, that sense of feeling tired all the time, and then going to bed and then disturbed sleep. So it has a physical manifestation as well as a mental manifestation. For me, a period of loneliness. I think because of some of the things that I did, like I mentioned about the journaling, some good came out of it, because it actually forced me to have time and space to be with my grief, the pain and find ways of coming to terms with the loss, if that makes sense. So I can see that some good came out of a very lonely time, where I felt isolated because I looked inward and dealt with things. Well, I still am dealing with them, but it helped me make a start.

Jennie: 13:13

Next, I'm speaking to singer songwriter, Calum Scott, who chats to me about his experiences of loneliness from when he was younger, and also during lockdown in 2020. We also talk more generally about mental health and looking after our well being in today's society. Callum, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

Calum: 13:36

Thank you for having me.

Jennie: 13:37

Can you just introduce yourself to our listeners?

Calum: 13:40

Yep. So I am Calum Scott, I am 33 years old. I'm from like on a dating website. I'm 33 years old. I'm from Yorkshire. And I am a singer songwriter. And have experienced all types of sort of mental health in the past, good and bad. So it's a pleasure to come and speak to you about my experiences today.

Jennie: 14:03

Oh, brilliant. We really appreciate it. So we're talking about loneliness. In this episode, you've been very open in the past about loneliness you've experienced when you were younger? Can you tell us about your experience of loneliness and how it's impacted you?

Calum: 14:18

Yeah, I mean, definitely, I definitely felt loneliness when I was younger, but I actually probably more recently, alongside everybody around the world felt loneliness during lockdown. Probably the most severe I fell if I'm honest, because you know, when I was younger, it was kind of an I'll get into that in a second. But I suppose when I was younger, it was a more of a development thing. And I was going through a journey and everything like that, whereas the isolation that we had because of lockdown, I think was so far removed from what normal life is that people who haven't felt that in us before felt extremely lonely. You know, I had friends that during lockdown was sent to me like I've never felt like this before. I feel I'm sad, I feel miserable. And I think it was probably because all of the social events that we had, and even going to the pub and just having a pint with our mates, like that kind of stuff being removed from your, you suddenly realize what those little things mean to you, you know, having that company. But yeah, I mean, going back to when I was younger, I've spoken very openly about before about my sexuality and growing up, and when I can find it in my friends, that I was gay, or that I thought I might have been gay, or that I just wasn't interested in girls, I was totally abandoned by them. And that was horrible at such a young age to lose all of your friends for something that you don't understand. You know, at that point in time, I wasn't necessarily thinking about relationships, or anything like that. It was more just the fact that I was skateboarding with my mates. And there was interesting girls, and they were taking the attention away. You know, I didn't think any more of it than that. But when I'd started to think about that, and, you know, Am I gay, am I different to them, and then especially when I talked about it, and I was sort of cast off by them and abandoned by them. The loneliness I felt then was the, it's just the worst feeling. Physically, you know, being alone. But then, you know, a little bit later down the line, when I had stifled my, my sexuality, I did sort of put that down and I pushed it, pushed it down, and not not wanting to talk about in suppressed it. Growing up, even though I was surrounded by friends and family, and I was surrounded by people who loved me. I still felt very alone. And I still felt that I was dealing with this totally on my own died, nobody else to relate to nobody else could know what I was going through all had experience when I was going through. And that leaves like a massive hole in your life, because you just don't feel that you're a complete badass. And especially when you feel like you're facing it by yourself. It sort of it makes you feel like you're just in the middle of a, you know, in the middle of in the middle of nowhere, just totally on your own nobody to relate to nobody to talk to about it.

Jennie: 17:13

Clearly isolating. Yeah,

Calum: 17:15

I mean, it just literally makes you feel like, you've got nobody to talk to about it. And I think that fear of never never been able to talk to anybody about it is kind of perpetuates. You know, that's that sense of loneliness carries on and it cycles around.

Jennie: 17:33

Yeah, definitely. Thank you for sharing that with us. I really appreciate it. And I think what you're seeing is so important about, you know, you can be surrounded by people. But if these people aren't celebrating the real you the parts of you, that you that are really special to you, then yeah, you do really want people to see like the real you and celebrate you. I think that's so important. Just to bring it back to you were talking about the loneliness that you felt during lockdown. Was there a turning point for you? Was it kind of naturally a thing started to lift? Or were there certain things you did to kind of help yourself feel more connected?

Calum: 18:05

I think with me, it was needing to make sure that I didn't get pulled down into that kind of spiral of, you know, feeling alone feel like it's never gonna come back. You know, when am I going to see people again, I think it's very easy to get caught in a downward spiral. And so I started speaking to my life coach, again, I started doing zoom sessions with my, with my therapist, that really helped staying in touch with family. But I think for me, one of the big turning points was turning back to music. Because I hadn't written in such a long time, because I just felt that there was so much bigger things going on right now. That for me to be searching around for the right like concepts to write about. I just thought it's just not respectful or appropriate right now, for me to concentrate on my career when all this is going on. When I was during lockdown, what were my mental health was going was my attitude was like, right, what can I do to make a difference or to help? And so like, I went on my social media, and one of the things that I did that I was very proud of was we we did a week of mental health. I think it might even be this time last year, Mental Health Awareness Week, I did a couple of performances all for mind, just to try and raise money and awareness. And that was really that was really a beautiful moment for me to use my platform to do other things than just to promote myself. So I think that reconnection to, you know, wanting to help people and my music and that whole thing coming full circle really was the turning point for me

Jennie: 19:50

and what what do you think are some of the biggest myths about loneliness that we have as a society?

Calum: 19:55

I think one, one big myth is that and loneliness isn't filled with people around them. So like, you know, just because you're surrounded by friends and family and a support base doesn't mean to say that you're not lonely. Then people think of loneliness as what I described earlier as being isolated in your own home on your own, which is physically alone. But loneliness, you can feel at any one time, even if you're surrounded by you could be in the middle of a packed out room that are all there to speak to you and still feel lonely. Because I think loneliness isn't necessarily a feeling of being physically alone or being isolated, necessarily. It's a mindset, you know, it's a headspace that you're in of your, you know, how you feel is isolating. I think that's, you know, that's what learning this can mean to some people. But I think, you know, we have to, through things like this and convert, you know, conversation and keeping that conversation going, I think that will dispel that kind of myth of, of that and also probably another myth might probably be, you know, young people don't feel lonely. You know, young people are carefree. You know, they've got other friends around them. They're any age whether did they haven't got any words in the world? I would argue that young people are this generation of young people are much lonelier than the last generation, the generation before.

Jennie: 21:21

Yeah, it's like you say loneliness can affect any of us, you know, doesn't matter age, you know, background where we live in the world, it can affect any of us at any time. And in terms of looking after your own mental health was has there been any good advice that you've received on looking after your mental health? Or any tips that you could maybe share with listeners for looking after their well being? Yeah,

Calum: 21:42

I mean, like I said earlier, it mental health and the promote good mental health is a journey because it's, there's so many tools out there. And there's so many different sort of methods and things that you can do that not everybody's going to respond well to, you know, some people you know, might need to be more open and talk more often. Other people might feel that that is way too much and that they don't want to talk about their feelings all the time. I know people, you know, back home in Yorkshire, Mr. Van aspose. Quite, laddie, if I'm going to use that expression that I just like, No, I'm not talking about our field. I talk about our field

Jennie: 22:27

in Scotland we have a lot of landslides.

Calum: 22:32

But it's like it the problem with that is, is it's it's not it's not a lot of my mates will say that it's it's, well, I'm struggling. I got a show. I feel it's and almost describe it as a weakness. But I still cry. Boys Don't Cry. Yes. It's almost like, you know, I'm not I'm not soft. I'm not sensitive. It's like, well, there's nothing manly or strong or Laddie about suffering in silence. There's no you know, it's not a braver thing to do is to be like, Oh, I'll go down the pipe pub with my mates and have a couple of pints not talk about I feel go home and feel incredibly sad and lonely. So like, you know, talking about is the only way to get off your chest,

Jennie: 23:17

it does take a lot of courage to do that as well. You know, that is like you say it's the brave thing to do?

Calum: 23:22

Yeah. Not a lot of people, you know, there might not be a lot of people that would want to do that want to take that step. You know, when I was talking to my sports therapist, as part of that mental health week, we were talking about how, for me personally, exercise is a great way of me feeling better about my mental health, because it's just an hour or two hours of your time, where you can just get out in the fresh air, you go for a run or play a sport or go for a walk, even, you know, going to the gym, lifting weights, whatever it is, just to just to sort of spend up that that pent up energy, whether it's good or bad, you know, sometimes I'm going to the gym, and I feel like I've got to throw the weights around. But sometimes I go in there and I'm just wanting to have a great workout. But regardless of whether it's pent up energy, good or bad, being in the gym, or go for a run or whatever, it really helps me sort of, it's an hour on my own. I have my music calm. I'm spending my energy that's in my body. It's those endorphins, calm because the exercise, you know, and it's a feel good thing. And obviously, you know, if you're good to your body, then it's going to have an impact on your mind as well. You know, healthy eating is another great one not not drinking too much as it is one.

Jennie: 24:36

Yeah, sometimes it's like going back to what we were saying earlier, it can be a bit more isolating to be like, no, no, well, this worked for me. Why isn't it working for you that can feel Yeah, well, you've got to be careful. Yeah. And kind of similar to what you're saying. I have days where you get exercise will help me and other days where it won't and I just have to kind of struggle with it. Yeah, and some days I'm like, I do not want to work out to do $1 workout and then I'll do it and I'll feel incredible after I'm like wow, I'm cured. Yeah. Yeah, it's about

Calum: 25:01

balance. I mean, I'm a Libra. So balance is written into myself, but I'm genuinely think balance is, is the most important thing that sometimes gets brushed aside, unknowingly, it's like, you know, for example, I'm the same, I wake up one day, and I'll be like, not going into the cat, a cat face it. And sometimes I do when, like, you say, you feel great for it, sometimes you do when you feel worse for it, you know, but then there's other times where I'm like, you know, I'm really trying to stay off of, you know, going out and socializing and drinking all the time, which is, you know, in my industry, quite common after the show feels like a celebration, you want to be out with your mates and carry on, you're not Hi, yeah, and it's very easy to slip into that. But for me, like, I'll, you know, I'll be, I'll, I'll try and do what I can to be healthy, and to make sure that I'm, you know, having a balance, but then there's some times where, you know, I'll almost be punishing myself and being like, you know, all my friends are going out for a meal and drinks, I'm putting myself off and I'm like, I need to have that balance, you know, I need to, I need to enjoy myself. And it's not that, you know, going out and having, you know, drinks is a bad thing. But the unbalanced of that I've going out and doing it all the time is going out with your friends and having a laugh. And, you know, just forgetting about the pressures of the world for an hour. So is like, you know, that's why that's why I love live performances is because you're there you're performing. People have come and paid tickets to come into a venue and to just watch a performance, whether that's, you know, a, you know, in theaters or you know, as a production or if it's artists, or if it's a comedian or you know, play or whatever it is, people have come to see performing arts to get away from the outside world. And if you can make them forget about all the problems that they're facing, or you know, the situation, they've got home or whatever, for an hour or two and get that escapism, that can be so important because it can also give you perspective as well.

Jennie: 27:02

Callum, thank you so much.

Calum: 27:03

I could talk for another hour.

Jennie: 27:06

So lovely to talk to you. I'm really enjoying it. I don't want to end it. So we'll put them in the podcast notes. We'll put links to your social media, tour dates, and your upcoming album will when it comes out. We'll have the link there. But yeah, thank you so much,

Calum: 27:20

god, you're so welcome. I'm just hope this I just hope this helps somebody and just if you are listening to this and you feel a certain way, please know that even though it might feel like you're alone, there are hundreds of 1000s of millions of people that feel this way and you're not and you know, just just try and find something that works for you. And, you know, all the best of luck with your journey.

Jennie: 27:49

Our next guest is Beck's from the north of Scotland, who tells me about how OCD can cause periods of loneliness for them. Beck's also talks about the feelings of isolation they experienced growing up in a small village where there was no other LGBTQ plus representation around them. Hi bakes, can you introduce yourself to our listeners?

Bex: 28:12

My name is BEX and I come from the north of Scotland. And I just moved down to Leith last year on work in hospitality.

Jennie: 28:21

Lovely. Now, can you tell us about a time that you experienced loneliness?

Bex: 28:28

Yes, as well, it seems to be more of a recurring theme more than like individual times. I've got I'm diagnosed with OCD. So it's obsessive compulsive. Yeah. And my generally everybody knows about it. Well, not everybody, but people sort of make the assumption of like the tidying things, keeping things in order, cleanliness, things like that. My specific sort of way that my OCD manifests is more like intrusive thoughts, or in the past it has been to do with health anxiety. Okay, so just be obsessing over any sort of health problem that I could think of, I would think I had it. And also relationships pool. It's like sort of like a sabotage thing. So sort of any thing that anything that sort of good that's going on, it seems to manage to make you sort of obsess over it and sort of self sabotage. That's basically what I'm experiencing now with it.

Jennie: 29:42

Okay, and so it goes through cycles. Yeah, experience. Yeah. Yeah. Really hard.

Bex: 29:46

Yeah, topic. Yeah. It's sort of like sometimes it's fine. Like, it's just something I've always had sort of dealt with but only recently sort of not I wouldn't say I've got a hold on it, but more Like I'm aware of it, because it manifests in, like this cyclical nature of like wanting reassurance, so performing compulsions, and, like sort of trying to alienate myself, but not wanting to at the same time. So that just makes me lonely. But I'm not really understanding because I'm trying to not expose myself to things.

Jennie: 30:21

Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of a catch 22. Yeah. And I can imagine, yeah, how the loneliness kind of comes into that, because it can feel quite isolating and hard to relate to people were kind of in that cycle, I guess. Is that would you say? That's right?

Bex: 30:35

Yeah, definitely. Because I was thinking to do as well as like, I used to think when I was younger, that maybe I was just, like, naturally like a recluse. And maybe I was okay with that. But then I think it's just that I've been noticing it more and more that I just, yeah, I don't do the things like social or whatever. Because I the exposure triggers the obsessions, and then it makes me like mentally worse. So that's why, for instance, when I lived at home, I felt like I was mentally at my best, but it's just because I wasn't exposing myself to anything. Right. Right. So I wasn't getting all these triggers and compulsions. Although my, like, health anxiety was really bad, but the other stuff like the other intrusive thoughts weren't high because I was literally not doing anything it was during COVID. I was up in my room trying to do my dissertation. It was very, no exposure to anything. So

Jennie: 31:36

yeah, and so I guess, yeah, so I guess that is like a, like, yeah, recurring cycle, because you don't want to be overexposed to things that might trigger this stuff that makes you feel, you know, unwell. But then it's quite, it's lonely to be in that place where you can't rectify it at the same time. So it kind of exacerbates everything.

Bex: 31:57

Yeah, because I recognize that and I'm like, like, so for instance, I haven't spoken or reached out to some of my closest friends for months. Or like people I used to work with and have close relationships with purely because of that stress that I feel of exposing myself to situations that might exacerbate the OCD. But it's not even like it's the excellence exposure that will end the end, help with OCD, but because the OCD just like wants to keep you in that space, of essentially being by yourself. It's a tough one.

Jennie: 32:37

Yeah. So would you say that outside of OCD? How does loneliness affect your mental health other areas of your mental health?

Bex: 32:48

What Yeah, get very done. Just in general, I think that sort of feeds into all of it, because I can be quite active. When I look, I like to be active. But I'm feeling lonely makes me just not resist the usual sort of thing of not wanting to go out, or like, go on a run nice and enjoy running. And then I just become like, I don't, I won't speak to anybody about it. It's a very secret, sort of, think of being lonely as event like that. I guess you don't really want to admit that you're feeling lonely?

Jennie: 33:20

Yeah, I think there can be a lot of shame around it. Especially like when there's times when I've felt lonely. That's actually, it's interesting. When I don't feel lonely. That's when I feel like the most comfortable about admitting I have been lonely. I don't. Because I feel like I'm fine. No, like, nobody's going to judge me. But when you're in that place of like, I feel lonely. And who do I call to speak to say that to? I'm embarrassed? I don't want to say that. And it's really hard.

Bex: 33:48

Yeah, definitely. I think that's as well, adding into the pie. I'm not being in touch with anyone because I've got this sort of, I guess it's kind of shame that I've let myself because I did this before. But like I've experienced it because I've just got into a new was relatively new relationship and my past relationship, I did the same thing. Because of the way that OCD manifested and other forms of loneliness sort of doing it again, I feel like I don't want to reach out to my friends again and be like, sorry, I did it again. Like myself into this space that I shut myself off and essentially made myself lonely, but obviously, it's my illness, but

Jennie: 34:28

what kind of things have you done to try and settle more like you've said yourself, though,

Bex: 34:34

it's been a bit of a struggle, but I've been like forcing myself to socialize with people at work, which has been good for me. Because yeah, everything in me just wants to hide away and just not expose myself to stuff. And yeah, just hanging out sort of like getting drinks or whatever or doing it something like playing sports. So that's been really good and hanging out with friends and stuff. But again, it's a push, but it's up. It's, there's progress being made. I guess it's so

Jennie: 35:12

you feel better afterward? Yeah.

Bex: 35:14

Oh, yeah, definitely. It's the sort of, it's not even the leader puts the I get this sort of like when it's happening, I'm like, oh, no, because I'm, it's like, I'm very aware of it or sort of afraid of what the aftermath it's gonna be. Yeah, yeah. Because my mind can make up some weird and wonderful obsessions. I was funnier. So. Yeah. Anything can spark, like, avoid, like group chats? Because of just like, there's no reason it's all irrational.

Jennie: 35:48

Yeah, it just could be any sort of could be absolutely anything

Bex: 35:51

that can just set me off. But I think the good thing now is that I realized that it's irrational. Whereas before, I'd be like, What is going on? Like, I'm losing my mind? I don't know why I'm reacting in such a erratic way.

Jennie: 36:07

Was there anything else that helped you to cope with feelings of loneliness at different points in your life?

Bex: 36:13

Yeah, well, I realized early on that I was clear. And I've kept it, it's just I feel like it's something that's very inherent in my being of being like, I'm just very secret. I'm, I'm not secretive with people, but with like, my own internal things that are happening and vary. And I've just learned to keep things and so yeah, kept the queer stuff in. But that won't help like that made me feel very lonely. Going through it without sort of having representation or like knowing anyone who was openly.

Jennie: 36:55

So the area you grew up in was that did you not really have anyone around

Bex: 36:58

you who were no didn't have anybody that were anybody that was out? Like overtly, there was people that were very clearly in relationships with one another, but they were a right turned off by family members as being friends lived with each other. It was very, yeah, that's contributed to me being lonely and sort of trying to, like self converted myself, to not being queer. But what helped with that was just, like, back in the day, just YouTube videos and things like seeing that other people were essentially like me, were fighting the battles because I was. I was like, early teens, when I started, like actually exploring it, in the sense of, I wasn't accepting it at the time, I was just more like, wonder what this is. But yes, still up until the age of like, eating, trying to be like, No, this is I like, boys.

Jennie: 38:05

That is really hard. Because one of the things that jumps out to me about when we're talking about loneliness at the Mental Health Foundation and these discussions, is that the most important thing for me is that it doesn't matter if you're around people, you can be around forks, you can be around friends even. But if you are not seen by them as your true self, we do need to be like seen and celebrated. And for the parts that we want to be seen, what advice would you give to listeners who may experience their own feelings of loneliness?

Bex: 38:38

I feel like what's very individual to what you're experiencing your loneliness as me like coming from my experiences of being a queer, OCD person, I would say, to sort of seek out representation, like see that the, like, the old trope of the grass is always greener, but like there is there is this sort of evidence out there of things getting better that old campaign but like they do. And in the OCD says, I guess everything that your mind is telling you to do, just push against the urge to seclude yourself, I guess, just gradually exposing yourself to doing things or like, whatever makes you happy. Find out what makes you happy. In my case, I like physical, like sports and activities and things. So find something like that, like push yourself to maybe join a team or whatever, which I have yet to do, but I want to do. Just, I don't know, find something that you liked him find others that like to and I guess if you open yourself up, you're more likely to maybe meet more people like that.

Jennie: 40:06

Now we'll hear from Katherine Seymour who is the head of Research at the Mental Health Foundation. She's going to help us learn more about the facts and research around loneliness across the UK. Catherine, can you start by telling our listeners what loneliness actually is.

Catherine: 40:25

So loneliness is a feeling that we have when there's a mismatch between the relationships that we have and the relationships that we want to have. And this mismatch may be about friends, or partner, or connections in your, your everyday life, your local neighborhood. It's loneliness is not necessarily about being alone, or feeling alone, we can certainly feel lonely even when we're surrounded by people. Anyone can feel lonely, and almost everyone does at some point in our lifetime. But what's really important about loneliness is that it's not who we are, it's about how we feel.

Jennie: 41:04

And how common would you say loneliness is in the UK?

Catherine: 41:08

Well, like many things in research, it depends how you measure it. For our loneliness, research for Mental Health Awareness Week, we use the Office of National Statistics, who regularly asked about loneliness in their surveys. Generally, they find that about 5% of adults in the UK, say that they feel lonely, often are always and that's that's one in 20 adults in the UK, a much higher proportion of people say that they feel lonely sometimes. But as loneliness is part of being human, we accept that feeling lonely, sometimes it's not unexpected. For us as the Mental Health Foundation, we're most interested in the relationship between loneliness and mental health. And for that reason, it's that 5% who feel lonely, often or always that we're most concerned about. Something that's that was really interesting to note is that this 5% Rose, that proportion of people who felt lonely often or always, that rose to 7.2%. So that's moving from one in 20 people to about one in every 15 people during lockdown in the pandemic. But it's now back to back down to pre pandemic levels of approximately one in 20 people.

Jennie: 42:25

And in terms of long term loneliness that you're talking about how does that affect our mental health?

Catherine: 42:30

Well, as I said, brief periods of loneliness, the sort of the people who might respond sometimes to that kind of questionnaire that experience loneliness at some point in their lifetime. That is it. That's something that we're all likely to experience and it's unlikely to harm our mental health. But being lonely, severely lonely or for a long time can certainly lead to mental health problems and increase your risk of of mental health problems. Loneliness, mental health are interlinked and can make each other worse, although often it's hard to know which came first, did the loneliness come first? Or did poor mental health or the mental health problem come first. People who are always often lonely, have a higher risk of developing certain mental health problems, such as depression and anxiety. Being lonely often always is also associated with increased thoughts about suicide. So it's the impact of this kind of loneliness. This severe and enduring loneliness is really significant to our mental health. The most common way of measuring loneliness involves answering a series of 20 questions, and answering each of those with, often always, sometimes never. And with each one point increase on this scale, there's a 16% increase in the severity of depressive symptoms. So that tipping point from being sometimes lonely are a bit lonely to actually this feeling of loneliness just won't lift is a real signal of this is causing problems for our mental health. And we know that loneliness has this sort of self perpetuating nature that can worsen our impact on mental health. So when we're lonely, we're more likely to worry and we're more likely to ruminate, which can affect how we perceive things, and can trap us in a loneliness cycle. So when we feel very lonely, we're more apprehensive of social situations, or we pick up too readily on negative social cues. We choose to disengage or we feel I'm not welcome here. And that reinforces those those feelings of loneliness,

Jennie: 44:35

in terms of society, what kind of groups who are the kind of people who tend to experience this long term loneliness that we're talking about?

Catherine: 44:45

The short answer is that anyone can be lonely, any age, any gender married, single with or without children, wherever you live, everyone, everyone can experience loneliness and almost every human being will experience loneliness at some point in their life. Having said that there are a number of what we call risk factors that can increase the likelihood of some people being often always lonely. And having one of those risk factors does not seal your fate. So if you've got one of those risk factors in your life, it doesn't mean you're going to be lonely. But it does help to know about them, because it prioritizes how society needs to respond to the issue of loneliness. So risk factors for loneliness include being widowed, being single, living alone, being unemployed, having a long term health condition, but also living in rented accommodation, being a young adult, having caring responsibilities, being from an ethnic minority community, or being LGBTQ plus. And some of these are not about the factor itself. So being from a minority ethnic group does not make you lonely. But regularly experiencing discrimination, and racism can certainly contribute to loneliness. Similarly, there's nothing about living in rented accommodation itself that makes you lonely. But if you don't have security of tenancy, it can be difficult to feel plugged into a local community. There's a, when we think about who loneliness affects, there's a really important point about age here, we're seeing increasingly high levels of loneliness for young people. In surveys, usually, we see higher levels for people aged under 25, than we do for people aged over 65. However, there is a major drawback of surveys like this, especially digital surveys, in that they don't reach people who are digitally excluded, and that is higher for older than for younger people. So people who are older and lonely possibly living in a care home, much less likely to be responding to a digital survey than a younger person who's lonely. So we can't say what the true levels of loneliness are, among older people using the current research methods that the ONS does and many others.

Jennie: 47:05

And if any of our listeners do happen to be struggling to cope with loneliness, do you have any advice or tips to help them manage that?

Catherine: 47:13

Yes, so we, we conducted some research to understand what had what had helped for people who had experienced severe and enduring loneliness. And we felt it was important to be realistic that we can't give tips on how to feel less lonely. Sadly, it's not that easy. And it's a different situation for everybody, but some time, but the advice that we can give is about finding ways to cope with those feelings of loneliness, as much as we can give advice on trying to change the situation. We brought together a group of people who had experienced severe and enduring loneliness from across the four nations of the UK. And we asked them what had helped them cope with loneliness. Their suggestions included, making the most of everyday connections. So perhaps setting yourself a goal to connect with one person every day. Even if it's a complete stranger. We have particular recommendations about if you don't know how to, if you don't feel confident about making that connection, pay somebody a compliment, it feels good to pay somebody a compliment. So you'll leave that interaction feeling good about yourself. But you may also make the other person feel good about themselves. We also had some great suggestions about spending time with pets or animals. If you don't have a pet, you can you can volunteer with animals, or even just watching local wildlife could help you feel more connected. There was a real feeling that spending time in nature is is a helpful thing to do. Partly because if you have a reason to get out of the house and go somewhere nice, where there's nature, you're much more you're you're opening yourself up to many more possibilities to interact with others. But even if you don't, don't connect with other human beings, being in nature helps this feeling of connectedness to your local area, to other living beings. But also just to a sort of a sense of there is something you're part of something bigger. Some of our participants that also found talking therapies really helpful. It's a safe space to explore your feelings and thoughts without judgment. And it's also a way of understanding how you can reframe your thinking about existing relationships.

Jennie: 49:29

Now, the last question is a big question. How can we address loneliness across society?

Catherine: 49:36

Well, in the UK, we have a minister for loneliness. We have a loneliness strategy. So there's good recognition that loneliness is an issue which needs to be addressed at the highest levels, but more needs to be done. And most people in the UK don't actually recognize that the government is is taking action on on loneliness a couple of areas Where there's there's a societal solution rather than individual solution is around the built environment and the natural environment. So having places to meet and come together within the built environment is really important having open spaces in urban areas with park benches so that there are opportunities to meet with people and to and to connect with others even that sort of low level everyday connection. Even things like the width of pavements has been shown to have an impact on loneliness, the more narrow or cluttered a pavement is, the less likely you are to be able to talk to somebody as you're walking with them, or stop and stop and say hello to somebody. connecting with nature has also been shown to alleviate loneliness. If you go outside, you're more likely to connect with other people. But that connection with nature, wildlife also helps you feel connected to your, to your local community, and to other other living things. But most people who are at high risk of loneliness, so those people who are living on a low income living in an inner city area, from a racialized group facing discrimination, they are least likely to have access to that good beneficial nature. So investing in urban green spaces and greening city spaces, so bringing nature to, to the built environment is a positive step to tackle loneliness and society. We also need to see much more in the way of community based activities that are affordable. These play a huge role in reducing loneliness. They might include opportunities for adult education, evening classes, facilities to explore hobbies and interests. Importantly, that don't incur high costs, youth clubs and sports facilities all need to be available. They need to be available on local basis need to be low cost accessible and welcoming to newcomers. That means that people who are lonely have ways of making connections in their local community

Jennie: 52:11

thank you so much to Callum Beck's, Carol and Catherine for joining me on Let's Talk mental health. I have been your host, Jenny Walker. And I hope this episode has helped you think about what loneliness means to you and your mental health. If you'd like to get involved with the campaign to tackle loneliness, this Mental Health Awareness Week is the ninth to the 15th of may then visit mental health.org.uk forward slash mph Aw. The Mental Health Foundation has been running Mental Health Awareness Week for 22 years now, and we would love for you to get involved. All of the resources we've mentioned in this episode are available in the podcast notes and on our website. We're continuing this conversation over on our social media channels. If you'd like to share your thoughts on loneliness and mental health, remember to tag the Mental Health Foundation and add the hashtag. I've been there. If you have been affected by any of the topics that have come up on today's podcast episode, then Samaritans are available 24/7 for free in the UK for 116123. And whatever you're going through, they're there to face it with you. If speaking on the phone is too difficult and you prefer to text, then get in touch with Crisis Text Line by texting shout to 85258 If you're experiencing a personal crisis are unable to cope and need support, they are available 24/7 If you're feeling like ending your life, please call 999 Right now, or go to a&e and ask for the contact of the nearest crisis resolution team. These are teams of mental health care professionals who work with people in severe distress. If you would like more information on where to get support for your mental health, visit mental health.org.uk forward slash getting hyphen help. Thanks so much for listening. Take care